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Following is a little teaser of the interview I did with my business partner Dave Bisbee.  The full interview will be published tomorrow on Mr Business Golf and the Biz Golf Guru sites. Enjoy!

Dave Bisbee – Biz Golf Guru Founder

Meet Dave Bisbee who runs the ultimate in comprehensive game improvement center at Sedona Golf Resort, Sedona Arizona and provides the only integrated system combining golf instruction, custom club fitting, and mental  conditioning available today.

Anchored by Dave Bisbee the Center provides an environment that welcomes new golfers to the game, helps the seasoned golfer achieve higher levels of performance, and offers a unique series of programs for business executives.  A proprietary “Mental Game” program helps golfers gain a deeper understanding of self which leads to a clear cut plan for setting and achieving goals

With more than 35 years of experience Dave is renowned for his innovative methods and easy going style helping thousands of golfers gain greater satisfaction through improved performance.  Known by his peers as a teacher of teachers, Dave has pioneered an integrated system linking mind, body, and Golf. This holistic approach connects the dots that lead to achieving goals.

Dave has authored several books, articles and instructional videos as well as many innovative programs for Fortune 500 companies that combine golf with executive development.

Following is my interview with the Biz Golf Guru.

Mr Business Golf: We have been out talking a lot about business golf over the years but I have never asked you straight up What is Business Golf to you?

Dave: To me it is any of a number of golf experiences that are intended to affect a business objective. It could be to establish or strengthen a customer relationship… or to have the opportunity to bond with team members… or to uncover potential new business opportunities.

MBG: We share in our push towards bringing business golf to more business people as a way to enhance their enjoyment of the game. What are your thoughts on How can Business Golf help Golf?

Dave: By making the game a part of their business strategy. Many companies have shied away from golf over the past few years because of the perception that it is a wasteful use of time and money. If they know how to use it the game can be one of the most powerful and cost effective methods of CRM and relationship marketing that there is.

MBG: You and I have been round and round with thinking out are joint approach to helping Golf find solutions to what is keeping it from growing, Why do you think Golf is not used by more business people?

Dave: I think it probably boils down to the 2 most common challenges which you and I have talked about so often… Time…and Money. Maybe there is some hesitation with regards to skill level but I don’t think that is as much of a factor.

MBG: I am asked by business people who are finding golf as a great addition to their business networking what to expect as they use it more.  To you What is a perfect round of Business Golf?

Dave: Well if there is any such thing… but for me it is when I have picked the right people for the experience and matched it with the perfect venue, and I have managed to foresee all of the potential mishaps so there are no surprises. Oh and at the end we all have agreed to next steps.

MBG: We both are contacted by golf courses, private golf clubs and other golf related business people asking for our advice on possible solutions we see they should consider to get through the slumping economy and grow their business.  In your view What has Golf need to do better or change to encourage more business people to play golf?

Dave: I really believe that the industry has to do a better job of selling the multitude of ways in which the game can be experienced. Too many people in and outside of the industry keep trying to sell golf as 18 holes and that’s it. That just perpetuates the notion that the game takes too much time. We need to develop a more a la carte approach. A business lunch at a golf course is a golf experience… a visit to the driving range after work hours to hit a few balls and share a drink is a  golf experience… and 9 holes at the end of the day or on a weekend can suffice. We just need to change the mind set of “golf takes 5to6 hours to play”.

MBG: We talk nearly daily hammering out are approach to enlighten more people to how golf can be used as a business tool and discuss in detail how as a business, or recreation, Golf has got to change to survive.  Where do you see Golf in Five Years?

Dave: That is a really BIG question. There are so many things that can affect where the game goes…for the most part I think there will be a resurgence of it’s popularity because it is becoming such a global game…I mean the economy can’t be bad everywhere at once can it? And I hope that people like you and I will have some influence on the strategic benefits of the game as it pertains to business. Ask me again in 2017.

Dave and I will be having our annual summit meeting this Spring out in Phoenix, Arizona.  I hope to be able to expand upon these and more questions with Dave while I am out there so I can bring to this forum more insight into what Business Golf can to do help the golf industry.  Big thanks to Dave for taking the time to provide you his views and until later, let me know how I can help.

Hard to believe social media has been around for more than ten years.  You would think by now more businesses would be using it.  Could it be most businesses still don’t believe in a social style of marketing really working…or will work for them?

The question, What is Social Media, has been asked a large number of times over the years and each time there is a change made in the world of online social networking the question is asked again.  The issue on how social media is best used remains the same after all these years and what remains constant over time is still most businesses just do not know how to be social.  The root cause resides with the fact most businesses lack the interest in being social. 

Over time the lack of understanding how social networking works turned into businesses developing the belief there is NO ROI in social networking.  From there the drums from both sides of this debate started pounding out articles saying how social media can improve business or saying how much bunk there is to using social media. 

What has been found to be very true is social media works for some and doesn’t for others.  However, what is overlooked is the fact that social media would work for more businesses if they knew how to use social media and once learned dedicate ample time and resources needed for the social media to become the mainstay of their marketing campaign.

The Bottomline: 

Businesses want immediate profits from their marketing campaigns.   Consumers are looking to the internet to find out who they can trust in the business world.  There is still a complete disconnect between businesses and consumer since the message being delivered is not what the consumer is looking for.  Businesses have to understand what social media is and how it works in order to benefit from its value.  Businesses have to learn that social is being personable and media is how that the personable message is delivered. 

Pretty simple, once you understand what social is.  Hope more businesses learn this quickly and not waste another 10 years arguing how social media will not work.  Let me know how I can help.

I’ve answered this question a few times in my career which spans across a long period of time.  What is interest now about being asked this question is the answer I give is usually never the same.  I guess that is what makes playing Golf different than playing other sports or games.  There are just so many reasons to play golf.

Overall, I play golf for relaxation.  Yes, golf is relaxing if you play it knowing you are not going to beat Tiger Woods, but could take down you 9 yr old grandson..for now.  I also play golf for business.  No, I am not a professional golfer per say, just a golfer who plays golf with clients or potential clients to get a better understanding of the true person I am dealing with.

Many people don’t use golf as I do and that is perfectly OK.  That is what makes golf the versatile activity for many.  I find most people who ask me why I play golf don’t play golf and in nearly all cases have a complete misunderstanding of golf.  Many say they have tried golf and hate.  However when I drill down to how they started to play golf or learned to play golf I found they have never stepped off the mats of a driving range to play golf on a golf course…or, never was taught to play golf.

It really is a shame how golf is negatively perceived by so many people.  Granted, if your only exposure to golf is watching it on TV then it is understandable how so many people can get the impression golf is only played by a bunch of conceded snobs.  Same goes if your only view of golf is from viewing comments made about golf on Twitter.

I wholeheartedly respect when someone I just played golf with asks me why I play golf.  It does not shock them one bit when I answer…I just like it!

Hopefully, I get to play golf with you someday so you can understand what I am talking about.  Let me know how I can help.

(This issue keeps coming up around the country so I thought a recap of the blog written July 2011 would be appropriate)

At a dinner gathering last evening a few of women golfing members of a private country club reported on the latest policy changes made to their club’s summertime tee times.  The reason given for the strange policy change for tee-times on weekends was based on ‘Industry Standards’.  The question for the rest of the evening became…when does ‘industry standards’ override logic? The policy this private country club felt was needing to be changed dealt with the seasonal ‘Double Tee’ starts in the mornings. Teeing off on both sides of the golf courses during the summer months was to accommodate more members to play in the early morning before the heat of North Texas days becomes unbearable.  This method of course management has been more than a tradition for this club to offer members split tee starts in the morning.  This process of split tee starts included a crisscross after each 9 holes played.  This has worked for years.

Nature of the Problem

However, the club was experiencing a problem for which they felt a drastic change in policy was needed.  It seems many members were falling out after nine holes f play.  The fallout at the turn was causing gaps of groups of golfers.  These gaps, the club manager assumedly felt, were a waste of club resources. The club management felt the unpredictable and random open slots could have been filled with ‘Golf Cart Renting’ members.  Obvious, this seemed to be a ‘missed revenue’ opportunity for the club.  As a result the only solution the club’s management team could make to capitalize on greater revenue was to change the policy on how the split tee-times would be managed. So out of the great wisdom of the club’s management team they mandated, by change of policy, that the tee-times booked on the back nine portion of the double tee-times starts would be for 9 holes only.  This meant the tee-time requests for the few members (approximately 75 to 80 members from 7:30am to 9:30AM on each golf course) who requested weekend morning starts on the front nine of the golf courses would win the honor to play a full round of 18 holes, while the same number of members who selected to tee off on the back nine only got to play 9 holes. Yes, the ‘WTF’ statement was used several times during the dinner gathering.

Lack of Communication Causes Problems

Amongst a number of  major concerns these members of the private club had was in the effort the club made to communicate the policy change to the membership. The gaps in communication from the club management to the membership was again a contributor to the problem the membership was having with accepting the policy. The only form of notification on the change of policy offered the members was a flyer placed in the clubhouse and on the online tee-time program.  It was also assumed there was a notice in the club newsletter sent to all members in their bill which generally is never read by the majority of the membership. For private clubs’ with weak connection to their membership ineffective forms of communication on changes in a major policy will work against them. Weak communication produces;

• a membership who has a lack of confidence in the club’s management
• low morale amongst employees who catch the blunt end of the lack of communications from the members who are angry about the change
• an intolerant atmosphere resulting in members eventually leaving the club out of discuss
• negative publicity towards the value of being a member of the club

This seems to be happening now at this private club as a result of how this issue was handled.  However, there are a few contributing factors related to why  policy changes are not communicated effectively and why written notices are not read..which results in the policy changes not being readily accepted. Here are three of the top reasons communications breakdown at this private country club..

1. Approximately 60% of the golfing members, of this particular private country club, do not come into the new members’ clubhouse or locker rooms, before or after a round of golf, due to those facilities no longer being accommodative to most members’ needs or interests.  Seems the recent multi-million dollar remodel of the layout of the clubhouse’s gathering places, to be more of a ‘Resort’ feel instead of ‘Private Club’ feel, is pushing more members, of all ages, to develop a lack of interest in going into the clubhouse…not to mention the price gauging the club administers to those members who do come into the clubhouse for after round socializing and drinks.
2. Almost 50% of the golf members who use any online tee-time request system do not read any of the notices posted on the system since most systems are marred with a large number of erroneous messages.  Most golfing members prefer to use the traditional, more personable, method of calling the pro-shop to set up a tee-time for the weekend.   Resentment to being forced into using a non-personal, online method of requesting tee-times also results in the lack of interest in the notices being made online.
3. A growing majority of the membership do not read the newsletters or notices provided in the monthly dues bill mailings.  The notices provided with the monthly bills have become marketing promotions for functions and events of no interest to most golfing members resulting in the notices being passed on to the trash can like most direct mailing promotions.  There are also a significant number of members who have their bills paid through a trust fund provider or CPA’s for which the member would never see the newsletter under any circumstance.

Root Causes

This club’s Online Tee-Time Request system was put in place due to the club’s very large golfing membership and to manage the large volume of play over three golf courses.  Over half of the members prefer to play golf only on the weekend and nearly all of them want the early tee-times to keep from playing in the blazing summer heat.  The rotation style selection for tee-times allowed an opportunity for every member to eventually obtain the tee-time they preferred, or requested, for the weekend. The concept seemed fair enough until the the club places tee-times too close together for the average golf skill level of the members who play on the weekend.  Too close tee-times, and unmanaged pace of play naturally is going to cause slow play.  Compound the slow play with 100 degree temperature in North Texas and you have a flammable (pardon the pun) situation for which members leave after tolerating only nine holes as part of their ‘anger management’. With only half of the membership not being aware of the change in the split-tee tee-time policy for those members who won the honor of playing on the back nine were treated to a very rude awakening when they finished the back nine to now find a line at the first nine holes was filled with members who had booked tee-times.

Adding Fuel to the Fire

This is when the ‘stuff’ hit the fan and this group of livid member’s started emailing the club manager to state their dissatisfaction of the policy change and the lack of communication on this change. After getting back to my office to read the email exchange one of the members had with the club manager.  I was very concerned with the reasoning the club manager used to approve the change in the ‘double tee’ policy.  Making policy changes in the private club sector based on so called ‘Industry Standards’ is a very poor position to take especially when the policy change the vast majority of the private country club industry should be made from the interests of the membership base.  Private Club Policy standards are set by its members since the members are who pay the club’s bills.  Even basing a rule change on what is presumed to be accepted by ‘society’ is very risky way to manage a private club.

‘Oop’s, I Take That Back’

As the evening wound down I was told the change to the double tee policy had been recently rescinded by the club management team and was done so, coincidently, after several of the prominent men members of the club (who financially support the club heavily through elaborate social function with huge bar bills) were given the back nine tee-times on the weekend and did not know of the policy change.  The policy change came late Saturday morning immediately after those gentlemen made the turn. Funny how money and the men of private clubs get so much attention over the women concerns (I wonder if that too is done by ‘industry standards’).

Ultimate Solutions

What could the club have done to avoid this situation?  After reading the reply the club manager made to these dues paying members I would take it any practical solution offered by this club’s management team would probably be not to rely on so called ‘industry’s standards’. The biggest measure this club could make towards solving future problems is in putting forth an effort to reverse the trend in their business downsizing and to immediately hire more people to be the mouthpiece of the club to the general membership.  Then assign these employees a number of members to represent.  These club’s employees’ assignment would be to become concierges for their assigned members.  Their sole responsibility of these club employees would be to get to know their assigned members.  Lean what their attitude is towards thing are..what their likes and dislikes are…and then be the person who communicates immediately with these members, face-to-face..or by phone..,to tell them there is going to be a policy change.  At this point this action taken is the only way for this club can do damage control. This method of beefed communication would also provide feedback to the club’s management on what reaction to expect from a change to a policy.  Plus it would also give the club an opportunity to develop a personal profile on each member to know what level of Golf skill each member has so they can administer their golf policies, training, golf schools and activities according.  This process would also set an ‘Industry Standard’..wink, wink! There are a number of solutions a business golf consultant could offer if the club management is open to real solutions and not just stop gap fixes. Let’s hope this club makes the right decisions in the future before they find themselves losing more members than they are gaining…again.

If you are out in the online social spaces you know at anytime of the day there will be thousands of people posting some sort of promotions.  Be it an advertisement placed on Facebook or a mini Sales Pitch on Twitter, they all give off an image that is not positive and far from being social.

What is the Problem?

Many people who have not caught on to how to use social media correctly attempt to bring old school methods of Marketing and Sales to the online social spaces.  From the beginning of their online existence they post, in many cases non-stop, one advertisement statement after another.  For a business these type of promotions are expected and usually are ignored by the vast majority of the consumers online.  For a person representing a business these back to back non-stop posts usually results in them being deleted or avoided. 

Either way, today’s consumer are becoming fed up with being hit with sales notices everywhere they go online.  This becomes an issue for businesses since they need the internet and in reality, the consumers need the businesses to be on the internet.  The overall problem is the negative image businesses create when they think of the social spaces as a place to post their billboard.

As little as one year ago the consumer’s reaction to the moderate level of intrusive promotional posts in their social space was looked at as something to be tolerated.    Many would just wave off the unwanted communications as part of being on the internet.   Well, things have changed and are changing even more rapidly than most studies being trumped up by the big box firms that tract internet active can keep up with.

The consumers are not as meek as they were and those who were hardened vets to sniffing out ways to get away from unwanted communication have now turned to helping fellow consumers find ways to block off the growing volume of advertisement thrown at them.  Yet, the marketing firms and misguided consultants tell their clients the reason their social media strategies are failing to produce a profit is due to them not keeping a high enough volume of content about their products posted in the social spaces.  So instead of listening to consumers tell them to Stop, they turn up the volume.

For businesses their image online and in the eyes of the consumers has been tarnished.  Consumers move away from self promotions and advertisements.  When it comes time for the consumer to buy it seems the ol Web-site for a business or a blog site is what they are first looking for…not ads in their social streams. 

Things are changing for businesses.  They are going to have to ‘Get Social’ to make a difference online.  Let me know how I can help.

Have you ever done a Google Search for the phrase..What is social networking?  Really?!?!  Have you? 

Of course you are going to get the site whatissocianetworking.com…duh!  But really if you look further there is not very many attempts to define what social networking really is…or is not!  Outside of me trying of course.

I have been around the block a few times with social networking having created three social networks over the past ten years.  Two online and one offline.  I think I have a pretty good handle on what social networking is and really now have a firm grip on what it is not.  But, for this blog I thought I would just make a brief statement on what Social Networking is with a focus towards the online environment.

Social Networking really is what it says it is…social …networking.   Meaning people…not places or things…socializing in a group…not by themselves or as singularity.  Pretty simple isn’t it?

Now I am sure here would be where a classic Rant on asking why people are not using the social spaces for social networking, but I would rather spend these last few words expanding on what social networking really is in an effort to maybe be of more help to those who see being non-social as being social.

In the daily review I make of the social spaces, that are really social spaces, I am seeing more and more people who obviously do not know how to socialize.  I have concluded in many cases the lack of socialization for many is not because they do not know how to social but is purely driven by global economic temptation of selling or marketing to perceived large numbers of people captured in one place.  This temptation is overwhelming to most.  I see all kinds of attempts to commercialize the space where social media should be used instead. 

I see more unsocial behavior leading me to strongly believe there are a very large number of people split up into two groups..Those who don’t care to be social and those who do not know how to be social online, which is more than likely reflective of them also not knowing how to be social offline.  This results in there being just a dribble of relevant social content being seen over the steady stream of non-social content.

It is clear more and more people are attempting to redefine social media to drop the social and just be commercial media.  

How To Be Social Online

For those who are tired of reading, the bottomline to being social, in any environment, is in the conversation.   No matter how bad the grammar maybe or how misspelled the words are, the conversation…not a sales pitch..with someone is being social.  Now..for clarity..better grammar and spelling and communicating in the person’s native language makes for a Better Conversation. 

And, for those who are still with me..if the conversation is done effectively, and a number of them held over a long period of time, it Will lead to the opportunity to talk shop, aka, do business!

Let’s get social people. Showing others who you really are is what the consumers want to know, not who you represent or what you have to sell.  Let me know how I can help.

It truly is amazing what people, places and things will do online to get attention.  Maybe amazing is not the exact expression on what many people are doing on line.  Maybe Sad is a better description of how people look online when they act like a Knucklehead.

1. knucklehead

From the 1930′s (circa). Refers to a person of questionable intelligence. The size of the brain being given relative size of a human knuckle. Similar to pinhead.

2. knucklehead

A dunce. A dummy. A very stubborn person or animal.

I was originally going to title this blog..The Things Idiots Do Online…but thought I would hold it for a total different blog since what this blog is about has to do with the people who know what they are doing but really don’t seem to care what people really think of them.  They are more of a Knucklehead than an Idiot even though both have similar character traits.

This Let-Me-See-What-I-Can-Get-Away-With-Online attitude has been there since the beginning.  The internet, with its ability to allow someone to be almost completely anonymous, is used like a cloak by many people to hide behind.  Usually there are other reasons people have other than grabbing people’s attention.  Things like hiding who they REALLY ARE! or the type of business they REALLY profit from.

Truly, the people who do not post:

• a photo of themselves,
• anything on their profile stating their philosophies of life,
• anything relevant 
• anything based on reality…

…usually are being a Knucklehead for missing a great opportunity to be included in the social spaces.

So why are these people who know better want to be a Knucklehead?

Most claim they don’t want a certain person or group of people..like their bosses..to know they are online.  Many will become a knucklehead because they are deprived of attention in their real life.  Sometimes the real reason for fooling around with not being real has to do with some sort of malice actions they want to inflict on others.  Many who rather post a photo of a slogan, logo, brand or other character as their avatar do so as part of the failed attempt to draw attention to themselves factor. 

Still there many many of these knuckleheads who feel it is a violation of their privacy to tell anyone who they are or where they are.  Many think the information on who they are and where are will be used for other reasons. 

Their being unaware of the negative image people have of them is why they are called Knuckleheads.

Where do Knuckelheads reside?

Most of this foolish takes place on sites like Facebook and especially Twitter.  Google Plus and LinkedIn are not immune but at least they do cut many of these Knuckelheads off at the knees when they start doing something foolish, like spamming people or making foolish comments. 

Still, what is up with these people not wanting anyone to take them serious?  Most of the Knuckleheads feel they are being serious or at least feel people should take them serious.  When confronted they usually take to mounting a defense of their reasoning for not posting a photo of themselves as being ‘None of your business’ or the more famous rationalization I have received for being a knucklehead is ‘Oh Yaw!  Well I have more Friends on Facebook and Followers On Twitter than you!’..when I hear this I keep waiting for them to say “So, nah, nah, nah-nah, nah!”.

Real World View

So how do people really see those who do not post photos or provide vital information about themselves? 

In a recent study I did with my online and offline contacts, 85% said they would not and will never place anyone who is not taking themselves seriously into their network or community space. 10% said they usually confront people who attempt to Friend them on Facebook or Follow them on Twitter who do not provide photos and clear credentials. 4% said they don’t even acknowledge their existence.   Only 1% said they don’t care who Friends them or Follows them as long as that person Shuts Up and Listens.

SO!  Why do these people keep being knuckleheads?  Most do it because they have thousands of other Knuckleheads who support them.  Why?  Well we could keep going on attempting to answer the Why questions forever.  What it all boils down to why Knuckleheads want to be knuckleheads is because they are…. Knuckleheads.

Enough said..right?  Let me know how I can help.

It is no surprised for the trillion or so people, places and things who are online to know Social Networking is the center of the universe today!  However, very few of this large number of people really understand what social networking is all about…or how to use it to accomplish their mission in life.

I could go on and on about what online social networking is and the impact it has on your image online but really it all boils down to one thing..one action a person should take or do to be part of the online social networking crowd.  That one thing is to Communicate…. Yes, have a conversation with someone, everyone or anyone online.

The old days of just posting a blog and then setting up a Facebook account that is linked to Twitter for to posting of one-way dribble have finally…thanks goodness…past!  Actually, the people who are still just posting updates and states and not responding to anyone in the huge community they built are performing what is now seen as Online Social Suicide. 

The conversation has now become the ‘Validator’ for people online to build personal and professional relationships. The more a person carries on a conversation with anyone reaching out to respond with their social media the more popular that person will be come popular.  The more popular the person..the individual..gets the more the search engines like them..the more the search engines like them the more that person’s business or personal profile will be seen.  This leads to a more beneficial levels of social networking.

The simple act of having a conversation has come back to being a very powerful tool in social media.  Without the conversation all other types of online activity becomes part of the million Unwanted posts made each minute.  Content from a conversation is the ‘Eye Catcher’ for those looking for others to socialize with.

It’s now time to start talking to others.  Let me know how I can help.

I hear this statement frequently from corporate executives..

I never have seen the need for me to social network for my company.  That is what our Marketing groups does.

The remark says a lot about the person and their lack of understanding of the importance social networking has become for businesses of all levels.  It is true, large business executives seldom venture out to any public function set up to socialize with small business owners.  Why?  On the most part they see the functions beneath their position in society. 

For the past ten years we all have seen plaster all over the news media the deplorable actions of a large number of the ‘C-Suite Marvels’.  In a concerning number of reports they seem to see themselves as invincible or untouchable by any authority.  Unfortunately, the action of these individuals casts a dark shadow over the rest of the corporate world’s top executives.  Finding ways to change a negative image or improve upon poor professionalism is why social networking at all levels of society should be the mission for all corporate executives.

It is rather simple process for business managers to find venues where they can approach the business people of the world.  Offline Social Networks are everywhere.  Of course there are some offline networks better than others, but overall it is well worth an executive’s effort to take a more personable touch to promoting their company’s image.

I hope more executives take their company’s image to heart and get out and meet others in other businesses. This simple effort will pay off in the short as well as the long term.

Let me know how I can help.

I still see a lot of content being published online talking about SEO this and SEO that.  This use to be interesting reading back a couple of years, but things have changed.  What has changed?  Well, first of all consumers’ thinking has changed.  Consumers are better educated about how the internet works and most know all about the tricks many businesses use to get in front of them to push their services or products.  This includes search engine results.

Consumers are real people and they have brains.   Today, the consumer have learned nearly every search result on the first two pages offered up by the search engine is forked up by the engines by design.  In other words, those results are paid to be put there and most of them…over 80%..do not have anything to do with what the consumer is searching..or at least that is what my study over the past few months is showing.

So, the question business people now ask…  Is SEO Dead?  Answer, no, but it is dying of a slow death.

It does get aggravating when you search for car wash and you get results for washing machine businesses and plumbers.  What is Google thinking?  Their business is based on providing relevant results to their search.  So what happened?  Better yet..what are consumers to do now?

The answer to this question is not an easy one to answer.  However, looking at this issue as a consumer I would say this issue of paid placement on the Search Engines needs to be redone if the search engines want to remain relevant and used.

What are you thoughts?